F131 Rig RAID 0 Raptors

[adriaan]

Hey guys I have a few questions. I went F131 because I like the box more. Here is the system I'm thinking of building.

Exterior Automotive Color: Black Brushed Aluminum Finish
Power Supply: 1000W Enermax Galaxy Power Supply
Motherboard: NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI Motherboard
Processor: E6750 Core 2 (2.66GHz x 2)
CPU Cooling: Maingear Arctic 120mm CPU Water Cooling System
Memory: 2GB Corsair XMS2-8500 DDR2-1066
Do you want us to Redline™ your CPU?: YES
Hard Drive One: Western Digital Raptor Enterprise 150GB 10K RPM 16MB Cache - SATA
Hard Drive Two: Western Digital Raptor Enterprise 150GB 10K RPM 16MB Cache - SATA
RAID (Requires Identical 1st & 2nd Hard Drives): RAID 0
Flash Card Reader: All-in-One Internal USB 2.0 Flash Card Reader & Writer
Optical Drive One: 20X Dual Layer DVD±RW Drive w/ LightScribe Technology - black
Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX 768MB PCIe
Do you want us to Redline™ your GPU?: YES
Sound Card: Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi™ XtremeGamer
Network Card: Integrated Gigabit Network Card
Game: FREE! Guild Wars: Factions PC Game
Operating System: Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate (32-Bit)
Warranty: 3 Year Maingear Warranty
Product Subtotal: $3,788.33

I am a developer/designer/gamer and already have a lot of storage on my server, so I'm looking for a machine that runs like lightning whenever I'm loading things up or saving things to the rig. But I've noticed a few things on people's machines; most people have 1 Raptor and 1 Large HDD so that they can save their files on one and boot on the other. So here's my question.

Question:

If I RAID 0 2xRaptors that loads the OS, will I still have enough room to load up games and such? And if no, should I get an additional 500gb HDD for the games/files and will the OS and operations be performed on the RAID0?

Another question:

I've got an older computer with 2x512mb RAM Corsair sticks, can I toss those into this machine with its already installed 2GB making it 3GB?

Another question:

As you have noticed I put in a 1000W power supply. I did this so that if I want to one day upgrade my Video card I will have enough power to do so. However, will this be enough should I go SLI in the future?

Another question for Maingear:

If I wanted something added in a year from purchase, could I come by the shop and have you guys tech it out for me?

If anyone has any suggestions on this rig please advise. Thanks.

Thanks!
adriaan

[adriaan]

ps: i have another DVD writer so Im gonna add that in when i get the rig.

[adriaan]

ps: i use an automatic backup system to my server which has 500 gb internal. i also have a 500gb external for safe keeping so i can image my entire machine every time im please with where it is at.

[theDreamer]

First :welcome:

Now on to your questions.
If in install the OS on the raptors they will run off of it, along with any other programs you wish to use as long as you are installing them on the raptors. There should be plenty of space, but I do not know exactly how many games & applications we are talking about here. Specifically since you are a developer/designer I do not know how much space those applications take up.

Tossing in those sticks of ram may work, but you need to make sure they are compliant with the current sticks that you would be having in your new system. To check they you need to find out what serial number verses those of the new ones are to make this check.

Current 1k power supplies will support a full on system with SLi and such, but without proper knowledge of where GPUs and CPUs are headed in terms of power consumption it may last a few years and that is it. Hardware beyond that might need larger PSU; now we do know that Intel is launching there 45nm chips so those will use less power & generate less heat. Yet the opposite seems to be happening with GPUs, even though they are using smaller nm chips they are producing more heat and needing more power.

Adding something is out of my question league, that would be answered by MG directly. I hope I answered some of your questions as you needed, but to get a quicker response you might just want to call MG, as is the man guy who posts here on the forums is currently gone on vacation so I do not know if others will be stopping by much.

[RottynDawg]

Welcome to the boards Adriaan...looks like a solid system to me and like all of your questions but the one Maingear will have to answer, have been answered :)

I will add that with the memory you spec'ed in that build, you would not want to add your old memory as RAM will always run as fast as the slowest piece. Since you are after a screaming system, I would leave the old RAM...in the old machine :)

[adriaan]

Thanks dreamer :)

I just did a quick check and put the same components into a Ephex and it came out $200 cheaper with the 1 year warranty. The reason was because I was forced to use the 1000W PSU. The Ephex is bigger and doesn't have any holes in the cases, it appears. Will this effect how loud it is while running? Which one is louder, F131 or Ephex?

I see what you mean with regards to the ability to upgrade. I'm sure that no matter which way I go this machine will be obsolete in 5 years with need to upgrade in 3. This is okay by my standards as I can afford to purchase a new one after that time has passed.

As far as space on HDDs is concerned. With a RAID0 I will only have about 150GB of space, since it combines the two. I'll be installing about 50GB of programs.

vista
adobe cs3 bundle
battlefield 2
half life 2
eclipse
office
itunes
windvd

Should I get that extra 500GB HDD anyway, just incase? And do you know if Maingear will partition these three correctly? I don't really want to spend much more than what I've come to $3800. Thanks.

adriaan

[adriaan]

thats really good advice about the old ram, thanks! If I do get more ram, i'll have to buy it on my own thanks!

[theDreamer]

Since the Ephex was just added a bit ago there is not much info, pictures just showed up in another of the insides, but the overall is unknown still. Also the WC v. Air cooling determines greatly about how loud a system is, and I know you have WC in your choice so far. So with the no holes it might be more isolated sounds, which create a lower hum or lower (frequency) of sound, still I am unknown on this subject so I do not know, just going by sound stages I have studied & surroundings.

Partitions I would think they might do, but then again they may not do that since it might cause problems in the "testing" phase they do. Thought the OS will be installed on the HD, and you can easily just partition the rest up for programs and other for applications (or how ever you chose) and leave no more for the OS (other than a gig or two for updates).

The internal drive might be a good idea for the storage of files, saved data, etc., and I do not think you gain much speed different, but I would need to do research to find if an internal drive is faster at all. If it even is it would be fractions of a second probably at most.

[adriaan]

Your definitely correct with the no-holes feature. Sound will leak if the case has holes, naturally. I just wish I could see more of the Ephex box before I purchase. You said "pictures just showed up in another of the insides", what do you mean? That the insides of the F131 show up for the insides of the Ephex? Thats what I've been seeing. I really like the F131's look. Doors on the front of boxes never made any sense to me, what if there is a wall where the doors meant to open up to? haha

I'm now thinking that I could get a small 160gb drive and use that ontop of the 2xRaptors just for saving and moving files around. You make a good point with regard to having extra space. I do have that external 500gb but I like using that as an external for full system images and other necessary backups/transfers.

adriaan

[theDreamer]

Also, as a quick question to help on the budget side of things.
How important is RAID 0 for you? I do not know what you are currently using in your rig so will you lose much if you opt out of the extra raptor and lose the RAID 0?

If so, you could easily take off some of the price and save for more ram or actually up your CPU to a quad core that might give you more benefit in your use of your system. I do now know this for a fact though, since I do not know what your programs use (only single core, only X amount of RAM, benefits from RAID 0, etc.). Many times RAID 0 will show a slight increase, but you will get a greater showing from other upgrades, but since I am unaware of how your programs (other than games) work I can not put a 100% seal on it.

[theDreamer]

Sorry, that is me typing fast at my office while doing work and holding conversations with others. :oops:

I meant to say was, pictures of the insides of the Ephex have been posted on the boards, but not of the exterior case.

Very true, you may not need a super large hard drive to just use for moving files around, and the even if so you can always add something later at your leisure (might have to replace the 160 depending on HD slots), but it would work just as well.

[adriaan]

Hmm this is an interesting recommendation. It is not pertinent for me to have a RAID 0, I just figure it would be so much faster read/write that I wouldn't have to stress when i save a huge photoshop file or try to open one from the hdd.

if you think having a quad core instead of another raptor and getting say another larger 7200rpm drive would work better i'd love to hear your insights in the matter.

you know my budget and im all about fast saves/loads.

[adriaan]

Exterior Automotive Color: Black Brushed Aluminum Finish
Power Supply: 1000W Enermax Galaxy Power Supply
Motherboard: NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI Motherboard

****** NEWProcessor: Q6600 Core 2 Quad (2.4GHz x 4)

CPU Cooling: Maingear Arctic 120mm CPU Water Cooling System
Memory: 2GB Corsair XMS2-8500 DDR2-1066
Do you want us to Redline™ your CPU?: YES
Hard Drive One: Western Digital Raptor Enterprise 150GB 10K RPM 16MB Cache - SATA
Hard Drive Two: Western Digital Raptor Enterprise 150GB 10K RPM 16MB Cache - SATA

****** NEW Hard Drive Three: Western Digital Caviar SE 160GB 7200RPM 16MB Cache - SATA II

RAID (Requires Identical 1st & 2nd Hard Drives): RAID 0
Flash Card Reader: All-in-One Internal USB 2.0 Flash Card Reader & Writer
Optical Drive One: 20X Dual Layer DVD±RW Drive w/ LightScribe Technology - black
Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX 768MB PCIe
Do you want us to Redline™ your GPU?: YES
Sound Card: Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi™ XtremeGamer
Network Card: Dual Gigabit LAN
Game: FREE! Guild Wars: Factions PC Game
Operating System: Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate (32-Bit)
Warranty: 1 Year Maingear Warranty
Product Subtotal: $3,884.69


That would be quite an upgrade...an extra HDD and a quad core cpu

This is JUST over my budget by $84, it wont break the bank. Sadly, its on an ephex with a stupid door :( maybe maingear can hook it up and put it in a f131 case lol maybe the ephex case is nicer i just need to see pics

[adriaan]

Thats an EPHEX and not a F131 cuz it comes standard with the 1000W PSU and 2 years less on warranty....

an EPHEX: $3,884.00
an F131 with the exact same stuff is: $4,100.83

What gives?

[theDreamer]

Well, there are slight differences in what you can get, now my suggestion to you would be to actually call them and talk to them about some of this. Real quick the F131 is going to be more with same specs because of that warranty.

Ok, call them and talk to them about certain things.
First I noticed you can not get a 160gb HD in the F131 which if that is all you need for data move around see if you can throw that in there to lower the price a bit.
Also, talk to them about the RAID 0 and the performance gain you actually get. I do not know, but they might have some test results that they can talk to you about if it is worth it.
Finally, just talk to them in general, so you can get to know the company better. :wink:

[RottynDawg]

It appears that the F131 includes the price of paint regardless of which color you get; that probably accounts for some of the price difference.

[adriaan]

Thanks so much Dreamer, I'll give em a call tomorrow.

[blindem]

I went with the Ephex with 2xRaptors in Raid 0 because, during my conversation with the MG rep, he said it was the way to go if I wanted to build a fast, high-end machine (I also got a 3rd drive, as you are considering, with 500gb for storage). However, when I set out to build my machine, I had a slightly different mindset. First, and perhaps most important, I didn't limit myself to the budget you're describing. Second, I wanted a screaming fast system that I wouldn't have to upgrade for as long as I could stand it.

About performance, I'd say if you want a super fast system for gaming, go with the raptors in raid. Yes, you'll pay for them, but it should have a performance difference, if what the MG rep said to me is correct (and I'd be very surprised if it weren't). Budgets being what they are, and it's good when smart people stick to their budgets, I can understand why you might want to avoid the raid 0 and go with one raptor and a storage drive. It won't be "screaming" fast, but I'm sure it will still be impressive.

[adriaan]

Exterior Automotive Color: Black Brushed Aluminum Finish

Power Supply: 1000W Enermax Galaxy Power Supply

Motherboard: NVIDIA nForce 680i SLI Motherboard

Processor: Q6600 Core 2 Quad (2.4GHz x 4)

CPU Cooling: Maingear Arctic 120mm CPU Water Cooling System

Memory: 2GB Corsair XMS2-8500 DDR2-1066

Do you want us to Redline™ your CPU?: YES

Hard Drive One: Western Digital Raptor Enterprise 150GB 10K RPM 16MB Cache - SATA

Hard Drive Two: Western Digital Raptor Enterprise 150GB 10K RPM 16MB Cache - SATA

Hard Drive Three: Western Digital Caviar SE16 250GB 7200RPM 16MB Cache - SATA II

RAID (Requires Identical 1st & 2nd Hard Drives): RAID 0

Flash Card Reader: All-in-One Internal USB 2.0 Flash Card Reader & Writer

Optical Drive One: 20X Dual Layer DVD±RW Drive w/ LightScribe Technology - black

Video Card: NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTX 768MB PCIe

Do you want us to Redline™ your GPU?: YES

Sound Card: Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi™ XtremeGamer

Network Card: Dual Gigabit LAN

Game: FREE! Guild Wars: Factions PC Game

Operating System: Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate (32-Bit)

Warranty: 1 Year Maingear Warranty

_________________________________________________

Thoughts opinions?

I took what has been said to heart and pushed things a bit further to make it that much faster.

opinions?

if anyone has any pics of their ephex box i'd love to see em:
adriaan@liquidium.com thx

[RottynDawg]

You can't get much better than that! Would love to see what that scores on the Vista Experience meter!

Pics WILL be required :wink:

[theDreamer]

That is a solid build.
Glad you decided to push it just a bit, because you were just on the edge of having a great build, but missing one thing or having to choose between two different things. I think after you receive this you will be very happy with your choices and the outcome of it.

[blindem]

Nice. I'm curious though, did the MG folks tell you they could redline the GPU without additional cooling?

[theDreamer]

Complete guess here:
~They might variable over clocks depending on CPU speed, cooling, and other factors. So if you over clock with just air GPU cooling you might not get the max, but still a greater speed. Complete guess though.

[blindem]

Makes sense. I wasn't criticizing in any way, I was purely curious.

[adriaan]

this one is $3,897.20 if anyone wants to know.

i have a feeling this build is going to be nuts.

[RottynDawg]

You can OC many GPUs with the standard cooling just fine but as Dreamer mentioned, adding the water cooling allows for MORE OC :) The cooling performance of the case can also play a big role in how much you can OC any component and that may be where the Ephex case really shines...I haven't taken the time to look for any benchmarks on that case yet.

I think that build will be more than nuts adriaan :)

:sonic:

[ginfan]

Nice build. One thought to consider:

From what I was reading in Maximum PC the E6850 Core 2 (3.0GHz x 2) proc out performs the Q6600 Core 2 Quad (2.4GHz x 4) because of 3 things:

1. Faster clock speed (3.0 vs. 2.4)
2. Faster front side bus speed (1333 mhz vs. 1066 mhz)
3. Apps don't utilize quad procs efficiently

Plus it's $75 cheaper. All that said, since you are going with liquid cooling, you may get more overclock out of the quad, plus who knows if future apps will use multi-cores more efficiently.

I would be curious what the Maingear Techs think.

[adriaan]

i came across these comparisons between processor performance of the latest CPUs.

Chart
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/07/16/cpu_charts_2007/page31.html

Extreme vs Duo
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/08/08/extreme_fsb_2/page11.html

I find myself torn. The e6850 (duo 3.0) is great for gaming but the q6600 (quad 2.4) is great for multithread applications, like 3d and sound editing. I want a machine that is scalable, so if in a few years from now I have difficulty running common(?) multithreaded apps it would be more convenient for me to purchase the quad. The hassle of upgrading a CPU in the near future can be worse than the $100 spent today.

On the other hand. The FSB speed of the e6850 is 1333mhz while that of the q6600 is 1066mhz. I don't know what effect this has on my system, but my assumption would be that the faster the bus speed the more information is transfered per time. The difference seems marginal, but maybe I'm wrong.

I am ambivalent. At this point, my only hang up is the case. I wanna see more of the Ephex's insides and how the front door operates. I'll call MG tomorrow and see if they can toss me some shots of rigs they're building.

night
adriaan

[theDreamer]

Tough choice indeed.
I personally would look at the Quad for future proof with later applications, and for the multithread. Yet how many of your current applications can even use the quad core or even a dual cores?

Also, before buying you might want to do some research on what the applications you use future plans are, many have (maybe tough to find) talks about how they plan on taking advantage of future hardware. Such as quad core, or 64bit OS, or utilizing different GPUs.

[adriaan]

I talked to MG and they said go with the Quad q6600 because it will give you scalability for the future. So now that thats said and done I'm waiting for pictures of the Ephex to make my final decision as to whether or not I want the Ephex or the F131. G'day guys.

[blindem]

They gave me the same advice. Hopefully we'll have Ephex pics up soon! (I hit the 20-day mark on the build/test/ship window tomorrow!)

[adriaan]

i got a few pics from the guys and the case looks amazing. much nicer than the f131 in my opinion. it holds more bays and since this machine is for scalability, thats what i'm going for. how long did they say it will take you to get your rig? 4 weeks right? im gonna buy my rig tonight. thanks so much to all of you for helping me out.

[RottynDawg]

More Ephex pics! :)